June 2010 Supernews
Executive Director Report
- Bob Hamm
Something new! We are now able to accept Visa and MasterCard payments for membership fees, meetings, and ads.
New members accepted over the past few months are:
David Chegwin, Esterhazy, SK.
Cody Matheson, Student
Ethan Butcher, Student
Steph Gagnon, Assistant, River Oaks
Superintendent moves this spring:
Jason Chwartacki to Fantasy Lake GC
Dale Jackson to Lorette GC
Justin Jones to Virden Wellview GC
Kirby Ashcroft to Neepawa GC
Michael Greenwood to Maplewood GC, St. Pierre
I am looking forward to a great summer after a winter that seemed relatively kind to Manitoba golf courses, and hope to see many of you at the meetings.
 
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It's AboutTime - A comprehensive time/labor study can help prioritize limited resources.
- Robert Vavrek
Private clubs are finding it increasingly difficult to replace the 5% of members who are typically lost each year due to factors such as the slow economy, the increasing age of the golfing members, lack of sufficient leisure time for four to five hours of golf, or simply too many other choices for golf. Similarly, rounds of golf are down at most public courses and fewer and fewer golf outings, the universal cash cow of both private and public courses, are being booked each season. Regardless of the reasons for reduced golf revenues, most superintendents face the difficult challenge of achieving a high level of course conditioning under severe budget limitations to meet the expectations of golfers who are generally paying higher dues or higher green fees each season.
Assuming a superintendent runs a relatively tight ship with respect to maintenance operations, the policy or mandate of doing more with less is not a sustainable long-term option. After all, there is only so much fat that can be trimmed from a steak or a maintenance budget before the value and quality of the end product are noticeably affected. But how do you justify your budget or explain how course conditions may change in response to significant budget cuts in a manner that all golfers can clearly understand?
There isn't much wiggle room in the budget for line items, such as fuel, fertilizer, electricity, and fungicides, and their costs generally increase every season. As a result, the line item for labor, which typically represents 50% to 75% of the maintenance and equipment replacement budget, will bear the brunt of severe budget cuts.
You could simply reduce the size of the a maintenance crew or take the time to determine how much labor is required to maintain each area of the course, and then make changes to the budget based on these data. When the data are accurate, you can prioritize maintenance operations, and the time/labor study provides valuable information s to golfers and your supervisor just ti how a budget cut will affect play.
Guesstimate how much time it actually takes to perform a specific task, and this exercise becomes practically c worthless. Have a dependable, well trained employee perform a familiar task and use the amount of time it takes to complete that operation as a base line. In addition, have different employees perform the same basic task under similar growing conditions and compare the time to completion. You may discover a more efficient way to perform a maintenance practice. Try to minimize fudge factors, such as bathroom and cigarette breaks or spending an extended amount of time for equipment cleanup when collecting time data for a specific task. On the other hand, keep in mind that you are trying to determine a reasonably efficient average time for completing a task, not trying to break the Olympic record for fastest weed whacking.
Budget cuts often require employees to multi-task. If an employee mows collars and then mows tees, then he or she will have to accurately determine how much time is spent on each operation. Naturally, some employees are more efficient or motivated than others, and the process of developing a time/ labor study can help identify potential candidates for promotions. There is a saying in business that may provide even more motivation for time/labor studies ... what is measured gets done.
I often hear complaints from superintendents that far too much time and labor are spent maintaining perfect bunkers, yet few take the time to determine the actual cost of bunker maintenance. Granted, it isn't an easy number to determine when you consider the effort it takes to accurately document the aggregate cost of bunker raking, bunker edging, string trimming, herbicide applications/weeding, adding
sand, measuring/distributing sand to a consistent depth, and repairing washed-out bunker faces after a heavy rain. However, you can make a very strong argument to a golfer, owner, or club president that their expectations for bunker conditioning need to be more reasonable when the cost of bunker maintenance exceeds the cost of maintaining greens.
Dollars make sense to golfers and those who approve your budget. If you haven't attempted a time/labor study for your course, it's about time you do.
BOB VAVREK makes Turf Advisory Service visits in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. An on-site visit can be especially helpful to determine maintenance priorities when operating budgets are stretched to their limits.
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Regional Reports
Lake of the Sand Hills Golf Course
Mark reports after record amount of rain in Emerson and Southern Manitoba Lake of the Sand Hills is in great shape. With no projects scheduled for the summer, he welcomes everybody to the 2nd annual White Buffalo golf tournament September long weekend. Enter early as it fills fast.
Neepawa Golf Course
Kirby now knows why they call it the mighty white mud river; after some nasty thunder storms three fairways where under water. Kirby reports that the water went out as fast as it came in and left little damage behind. He now says the course is looking and playing great for the upcoming Shane Hnidy golf tournament.
Tuxedo Golf Course
Ralph reports the course has never been in better shape but has never been wetter. The course was closed for 6 days due to the Assiniboine Forest flooding and backing up,. No projects planned for this year and we are all looking forward to the start of a hot dry summer.
Grand Pines Golf Course
Bruce reports the course is in fabulous shape after the earliest start in Grand pines history. Other than on going drainage work there are no major projects planned. Bruce looks forward to hosting the MGSA meeting Sept 9th•
John Blumberg Golf Course
Well, the first eight weeks of spring have been quite favourable for golf and growing turf. We closed for only 2 days because of heavy rainfall but the turf sure needed it. Our weed control measures are in full swing after taking a year off in 2009. It was a compromise to have flowers planted around the clubhouse. This year we reduced the amount of flowerbeds and doubled the amount of herbicide. Should have 130 acres done by early June. Clover is popping its head up and the sea of yellow is looking like a Bruins playoff game. Our equipment at Blumberg is showing its age now with most pieces in the 2500-3500 hour range. Breakdowns and part replacements are putting my equipment technicians retirement on hold. After 10 years of bandaging and fixing, he wants to travel the world. I am counting down the days until the Clear Lake meeting. Some of the best ideas come from the minds of my peers. Mitchell's jam session in his new office was no exception! Get the tents ready and see ya in Clear Lake.
St. Boniface Golf Club
With the warmer temperatures in the early part of the spring, areas around St. Boniface are slowly starting to fill back in. Right now we are battling the wet conditions that Mother Nature is throwing at us and losing. At the end of May, we received a total of 6 and 1/2 inches of rain within the two-day period. I don't know how, but we did manage to open the course on Monday afternoon after many hours of pumping. Since then, the smallest amounts of rain put us back on the verge of closing with saturation levels reaching their maximum. Hopefully once things start to dry up, we will be able to get on some of our much needed drainage projects.
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Tree Geek Speak
- Bill Schroeder
We have many amazing trees that grow in our fair province. The stately elms that line our streets, the mighty oaks growing in groves on many of your courses, the towering Basswoods and Cottonwoods along our rivers. These trees help define our city, our province and indeed your golf course. But I don't want to talk about them. They get all the credit. Today there are four trees that are gonna get their due. These trees are not only hardy in the harsh climes of Manitoba, but they seem to beg for more. They all have unique characteristics that make them beautiful, desirable and indispensable in our urban landscape. These are trees that deserve a place on these pages, in you hearts and hopefully somewhere on your course.
Larch
There are many different species of Larch trees around the world but it's the American Larch that you will see scattered in mixed forests around the province. The American Larch, more commonly called the Tamarack, is native to the northern United States all the way up to the Artic tree line in Canada. This beautiful tree grows up 60' tall, with a diameter of up to 2', and will grow in just about any conditions. From muskeg, to arid tundra, the Tamarack will happily persevere. The only thing the Larch dislikes is shade, so be sure to plant it in a sunny location for optimum health. Another unique trait of the Larch is that although it is a conifer, it is not an evergreen. It turns vibrant yellow in fall and is the only conifer in our province to shed its needles every year. Its spring and summer foliage is light to pale green and soft to the touch.
It has many industrial uses as it has hard, rot resistant wood, but has different value in the golf course landscape. Its tolerance and hardiness will allow you to plant it just about anywhere, especially in those difficult wet areas. Keep in mind that if the area is consistently too wet you do run the risk of having the tree up root in a heavy wind. Its unique colors offer awesome contrast, spring, summer and fall. The only downside to planting a Larch on your course is that in early spring before the needles begin to bud, you are sure to get demands from some members to cut down that dead spruce tree beside green # 9.
Ohio Buckeye -
Although not native to Manitoba, this tree is quite hardy to Manitoba's extreme climate. It would be considered a medium sized tree, growing to approx. 30'-40' tall and nearly as wide, although growing much larger in its native lands in the south eastern US. The Buckeye has many striking features from its rounded crown, its large palmate leaves, its conspicuous, upright, panicle, yellow green flowers to its spiny husked nuts.
It prefers moist but well drained alkaline soils and will grow in full sun to full shade areas. I recommend areas that get adequate moisture and some protection from the mid day sun as they are otherwise prone to leaf scorch.
Its overt beauty and hardiness will certainly make it one your fav's and when your members realize that carrying a Buckeye nut in your pocket brings good luck, you will be lining your fairways with them.
Japanese Tree Lilac -
This variety of lilac is native to Asia but fully hardy here. Its shape and habit ranges from large shrub with many stems to single stem tree form. In Manitoba, its height maxes out at about 25' with a spread of about 18'-20'. It, of course, has the signature fragrant lilac blooms, which are ivory white in color, starting in early summer and lasting 2-4 weeks.
It is quite useful to fill in small areas and to add contrast and color and it also looks great in group plantings. It is tolerant of moisture and drought and moderately tolerant of road salts. It does however, prefer full sun like all other lilacs. The Japanese Tree Lilac is sure to be a hit with ladies on the course or anyone in touch with their feminine side.
Norway Spruce -
This species of spruce is among the most widespread and adaptable in the northern hemisphere yet largely overlooked as a landscape tree in this province. Its form is quite unique for a spruce tree with its branches arching upwards and its pendulous foliage dangling below them. Mature Norway spruce are so beautiful in fact, that they are the tree of choice to adorn Rockefeller Center at Christmas time!
Not only are they beautiful but they are fully hardy in Manitoba preferring deep, moist and slightly alkaline soils. The emphasis is on moist, especially when young as these trees can grow up to two feet per year for the first couple of decades (under optimum conditions of course). They are among the most disease resistant spruce trees you will find. Its difficult to find fault with the Norway Spruce (kinda like Bob) except maybe that it should be given loads of room to grow, as they can grow beyond 75' tall and 50' wide.
Well there they are. Just a few of my favorite trees. Give them a try, you won’t be disappointed.
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Competition Report
- Greg Mitchell
Spring Curling Meeting
The Walter Perchaylo Memorial Curling Event was held at the Heather Curling Club on March 25. The competition was almost as fierce as 2009 when the team of Greg Mitchell, Shawn Major, Darren Kalyniuk, and Ian Martinusen pulled out a victory for the ages in an epic battle. This year the team of Ralph Schofield, Garth Recksiedler, Braydon Gilbert, and (The Legend) Jim Barr dazzled the crowds with their shot making and powerful sweeping. They proudly carry on the tradition of the spring curling meeting and etch their name permanently on the hardware in honour of Walter. Congratulations to the champions and thanks to the 20 people who attended and enjoyed the day. Thanks also to the Heather Curling Club staff on a job well done.
May Golf Meeting
The first golf meeting of the 2010 season was held at Bel Acres Golf Club on May 20 on a beautiful day. The greens were rolling smooth and the course was in great shape with the early start. The beer was cold and the scores were low for a May meeting. There were 41 golfers and most stayed for the steak dinner and after party. Matt Kulczycki had no trouble with the rough, winning the closest to the line prize on hole #15. There were rumours that a few guys had trouble walking the line by the end of the night. Darren Dundas left immediately after to hit the range after winning the high hidden hole prize. (sorry Darren) There were a few guys that must spend more time golfing than working and won closest to the hole prizes. Congrats to Russ Romaniuk and Ian Martinusen on their lucky, sorry I mean text book shots. Thanks to the Bel Acres staff for a tremendous day in the shop, on the course, and in the clubhouse.
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How to Select the Best Sand for Your Bunkers
There's a lot to learn about the sand you select for your course.
- James Francis Moore
With the possible exception of green speed, sand bunkers are the most controversial and discussed features on golf courses, regardless of the golfer's ability. Predictably, opinions vary widely on issues such as design, location, playing quality of the sand, and even what color is best. Generally, there are four major areas that must be considered when evaluating bunkers. These are sand selection, architecture, construction, and maintenance.
Selecting the proper sand for bunkers is arguably the most difficult of these four areas. The makeup of the sand strongly impacts maintenance and playing quality. The sand can also influence the architecture and style of construction of bunkers.
There are seven factors that should be considered when selecting the sand.
Particle size
Particle shape and penetrometer value Crusting potential
Chemical reaction (pH) and hardness Infiltration rate
Color
Overall playing quality
Values for and interpretation of particle size, shape and penetrometer value, crusting potential, chemical reaction and hardness, and infiltration rate all should be determined by an accredited physical soil testing laboratory. Color and overall playing quality are highly subjective values that are based on personal preference.
.Particle Size
As a general guideline, a sand used in bunkers should be composed of particles with a large majority in the range of O.25-1.00mm. Silt and clay (particles below O.05mm) should be kept to a minimum, since they are associated with surface crusting. Note that this size range should be utilized only as a first step in determining whether the sand is likely to be acceptable overall. In other words, it is unlikely that a sand that falls significantly outside this range will perform well in terms of crusting, hardness, porosity, and/or playing quality. On the other hand, it would be a mistake to assume that a sand will be appropriate for bunker use simply because it falls within this particle size range. For example, depending on particle shape, some sands that fall in this range would be considered too firm or too soft for play. Since particle size screening is a simple, inexpensive test that is performed by most sand suppliers, it is the best first step in determining if the sand is worthy of further testing.
When evaluating the particle size range of the sand for bunker use, keep in mind that bunker sand often ends up on the green in surprisingly large quantities. As golfers blast their way free of the hazard, the sand is thrown onto the adjacent green. Therefore, when selecting sand for use in greenside bunkers, the makeup of the green's rootzone must also be considered. The best rule of thumb is to avoid using a sand in the greennside bunkers that is significantly finer in gradation than that used in the rootzone of the green. This is the same basic rule used for selecting greens topdressing materials. You can safely lay a coarser material over a finer rootzone mix without creating significant drainage problems, but just a few topdressings with a finer material over a more coarsely graded rootzone can cause drainage problems.
If a bunker sand is selected that is significantly finer in gradation than the rootzone mixture used in the greens, additional aerification should be practiced on the affected areas of the green. Backfilling the aerifier holes with a more coarsely graded sand helps mover water more rapidly into the rootzone.
Material that is too coarse also can create problems. Particles greater than 2.00mm are classified as gravel. If present in large quantities, particles in this range damage mowing equipment and cause the ball to deflect off line.
Particle Shape and Penetrometer Value The shape of the sand particles has a strong influence on playing quality and maintenance. A sand particle's shape is classified by examining both the relative sharpness of the particle's edges and the overall shape of the particle itself. The surface of particles can range from very angular (many sharp, well-defined edges), to well rounded (smooth surfaces). The shape of the particle can range from low sphericity (an elongated particle) to high sphericity (a particle that is nearly round).
Table 1 - Potential for Fried-Egg Lies Thomas Turf Services
Penetrometer Reading Fried-Egg Potential
Greater than 2.4 kg/cm2 Very Low tendency to bury
2.2 to 2.4 kg/cm2 Slight tendency to bury
1.8 to 2.2 kg/cm2 Moderate tendency to bury
Less than 1.8 kg/cm2 High tendency to bury
The angularity and sphericity of the particles have a strong influence on the playing quality of the sand. For example, a low-sphericity, very angular sand generally has high resistance to fried-egg lies. Such sands also tend to stay in place better on the face of the bunker. However, this same sand would produce very firm bunkers that some players may find objectionable. Well-rounded, high-sphericity sands can produce fried-egg lies and are more likely to move off the bunker face during maintenance and irrigation rainfall.
Sands usually consist of a mixture of particle shapes and sizes. This is important to the stability and playing quality of the sand. Again, as a general rule, sands that are highly uniform in size range and shape (particularly if rounded with high sphericity) tend to be less stable than a sand that has a wider range of particle dimensions.
Determining a sand's angularity and sphericity is helpful in predicting the ultimate playing quality of a bunker, but is by no means an exact science. The USGA currently is funding research to attempt to develop better measurement techniques to aid in the selection of sands for rootzone mixtures and bunkers.
The angularity of the sand is determined by examining the particles with a microscope and comparing them to the chart in Figure 1 -- Angularity and Sphericity of Sand Particles. After measuring the angularity, the laboratory performs the penetrometer test to determine the sand's tendency to produce fried-egg lies. The penetrometer measures the sand's resistance to compression. The values are reported in kg/cm2. The potential for fried-egg lies is based on penetrometer values as described in Table 1 -- Potential for Fried-Egg Lies (Thomas Turf Services).
Crusting Potential
Crusting is the formation of a layer of dried, stiff sand on the surface of the bunker. Such layers typically are 1/8 to 1/4 inch in thickness, and they severely decrease the playing quality of the bunker. Sands that are prone to crusting require more frequent raking to maintain good playing quality. If the crusting potential is high, the bunkers will require raking following each irrigation and rainfall event. This greatly increases the labor required to keep the bunkers in good condition.
Crusting is directly related to the percentage of silt and clay in the sand. As silt and clay increase, the severity of crusting increases as well. To test for crusting potential, the laboratory wets a thin layer of sand and allows it to dry overnight. They then attempt to lift the layer on the edges using a spatula. Whether or not a crust has formed will be recorded on the lab test results and is usually reported as N (none), L (light), M (moderate), or S (severe).
Chemical Reaction and Hardness
Some laboratories also test the sand for its chemical reaction (pH). This value is much less important overall than the other test results and, on its own, should not be used to disqualify a sand being considered for use. The pH value provides insight into the chemical makeup of the sand. A sand with an extremely high pH (> 8.0) is likely to be strongly calcareous and therefore subject to physical and chemical weathering.
Sand particles also can change in shape and size due to mechanical wear. Sand particles that are very soft can be crushed into smaller particles during raking. A soft sand may play and drain perfectly at first, only to degrade in quality as the particles are broken down. Some laboratories now perform a hardness test to determine the likelihood of this type of degradation.
Infiltration Rate
Infiltration rate refers to the sand's ability to drain. It is also referred to by laboratories as saturated hydraulic conductivity. This measurement is most relevant to rootzone mixes for use in putting greens, but it is also used by some labs to evaluate bunker sands.
Since straight sand is used in bunkers, the initial infiltration rate measurement is likely to be very high -- often in excess of 50 inches per hour. As a general guideline, a sand being considered for use in bunkers should drain at a minimum rate of 20 inches per hour.
Infiltration rate measurements are more useful when evaluating the suitability of a sand that has been in the bunker for some time. In most cases, the sand in the bunker gradually becomes contaminated with the soil from the base and sides of the bunker. This process occurs more rapidly in bunkers with steep faces and in areas subject to heavy, frequent rains. A sand that has become heavily contaminated with soil and organic debris will drain much more slowly than a sand that is clean. Simply installing new or additional drainage pipe would be only partially effective under such circumstances. Complete removal and replacement of the contaminated sand may be the only complete solution.
Color
Unfortunately, bunker sands occasionally are selected based primarily on their color. Although sand color is important, since it strongly impacts the appearance of the course, it should not be given greater consideration than particle size, particle shape, or crusting potential.
Laboratories measure the color of sand by comparing it to the Munsell Color Chart. As a general rule, lighter-colored sands are preferred since they contrast beautifully with the green grass. Color measurements are also useful when evaluating the visual compatibility of two sands. An annual task on many courses is to add an inch or two of sand to existing bunkers to replace what is lost from explosion-type shots and water and wind erosion. If the new sand is a markedly different color from the existing sand, it can take months of raking for the two sands to blend into a uniform color.
Overall Playing Quality
Without question, playing quality is the most subjective evaluation of bunker sands. Players vary widely in their assessment of what constitutes good playing quality. One of the few shared opinions seems to be a desire for all the bunkers on the course to play in a consistent manner. For this reason, when adding sand to existing bunkers it is a good practice to perform the work on all of the bunkers on the course.
From a testing standpoint, particle size, particle shape, crusting potential, and infiltration rate all provide insight as to how the sand will play. However, other factors that have nothing to do with the makeup of the sand have equal if not greater impact on playing quality. The other factors include:
Raking frequency
Raking method
Green-side irrigation coverage
Depth of the sand
Length of time the sand has been in the bunker
The number of times per week the bunker is raked has impact on playing quality. On courses that rake daily, the possibility of even minor crusting is eliminated. The upper few inches of the sand remains loose. The sand also tends to be drier as a result of increased evaporation. Machine versus hand-raking also affects playing quality. Hand raking usually results in sand that is firmer and less prone to fried-egg lies. Machine raking can be either deep (useful to prevent weed establishment) or very light, depending on the attachment used.
The green-side irrigation system almost always overlaps into the bunkers. Thus, during times of the year when it is necessary to water the greens frequently, the sand in the bunkers will be wetter. And, since the irrigation system is designed to apply water as evenly as possible to the surface of the green rather than the surrounding areas, it is likely the bunkers adjacent to the green will receive varying amounts of water.
The depth of the sand usually varies even within the same bunker. The sand is almost always deeper on the low, flat portion of the bunker and shallower on the faces and slopes. It would be a mistake to attempt to maintain a consistent depth throughout the bunker. Golfers should gauge the depth and firmness of the sand while taking their stance and adjust their shot accordingly.
Sands often change significantly in their playing quality over the first few months as they become compacted and contaminated with soil and organic debris. Newly installed sand may seem soft at first, but soon will become more firm. The speed at which this firming occurs depends on the angularity and particle sizing of the sand, as well as raking practices. Since most bunkers are subject to at least some erosion during irrigation and heavy rainfall events, the sand will gradually become contaminated with the underlying and surrounding soil. As a result, the playing quality of the bunker gradually changes as the bunker ages. The sand particles can also change in size and shape due to mechanical weathering, as discussed earlier.
Determining which sand yields the best playing quality is such a subjective process that a test bunker is often constructed to allow golfers to fieldtest the sands for themselves. Assuming three sands are being considered (each of which has already been evaluated by an accredited physical soil testing laboratory), use 2 A' 6's to divide the test bunker into three areas. Evaluate the sands for a period of at least two to three months to allow the sand to compact and better simulate what will happen on the course. Unfortunately, while this testing process will demonstrate the playing quality of each prospective sand, it cannot guarantee a unified opinion among the golfers. The USGA currently is funding research to better predict the playing characteristics of sands through laboratory testing.
Several soil testing laboratories provide bunker sand evaluation services. Usually, a complete analysis can be obtained for less than $200. The laboratory will need a gallon of dry sand to perform all of the tests. Be sure to submit a sample of each sand that is being considered. Allow at least two to three weeks for the laboratory to complete the tests.
Conclusion
Clearly, there is more to selecting the right sand for your bunkers than calling the local sand plant and ordering a few truckloads. Today's golfers (at least in the United States) are becoming increasingly more demanding of bunkers that play consistently, drain rapidly, and provide additional beauty to the course. One of the most important pieces of advice this article can offer is to remember that time is a necessary component to achieve these goals. Allow plenty of time for testing to narrow your choices to sands that are properly sized, stable, and easier to maintain. Time also is needed for the construction and use of a test bunker to allow golfers to evaluate the different sands for playing quality. Finally, time will be required for the newly installed sand to firm up and take on its final playing characteristics.
JIM MOORE joined the USGA Green Section in 1985, spending his time conducting Turf Advisory Service visits in the Mid-Continent Region. In 1996, he assumed the duties of director of the newly formed Construction Education Program.
Green Section Record Jan/Feb 1998 Vol. 36, #1
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Consolidated Turf Equipment
Club Car
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Advertisers in this issue
Agrium
Alliance Tree Care
Brett Young
Consolidated Turf
Eljay Irrigation
Even Spray & Chemicals
Grant Golf
Greenject
Guertin Equipment
Gusta Sod Farms
Hilderman Thomas Frank Cram
Keso Turf Supplies
Pembina Landscaping
Pickseed
RiverCity Stumpers
Specialty Turf Services
Stephenson Equipment
Syngenta
Tamarack Equipment
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Reminder to Members
The practice of using your MGSA card for golfing privileges around
the province is just that, A PRIVILEGE. It has been brought to the
attention of the board on numerous accounts that some members may
be abusing this privilege, and not following proper protocol.
As a courtesy to the golf course and its superintendent, you are
required to contact the super where you wish to use your card prior to the
day you wish to golf. It is not acceptable to show up unannounced at a
pro shop, flash your card and expect to get free golf.
As a board we feel that the repeated use of your card at the same golf
course is not an acceptable practice, and is not what the card is for. So
please, call ahead. And as a super, don’t be hesitant to refuse someone if
they haven’t made arrangements with you before hand.
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